Scarlet Witch's Future

Originally posted by Kipe She wiped out an entire race, or species, or whatever mutants are classified as. This is a false statement as evidenced by the continued existence of X-Men comic books and the very mutants that inhabit them.

Of course not. At least not until Hope. Until she appeared, these surviving mutants were the last generation.

Originally posted by UncannyScott And with the Ghost Rider thing, wiping back and him still being a skull on fire on a bike is the point. That is the iconic character, the one showing up in the new movie this year. That is what they would tap into and try to get us back. Daredevil is going back to its roots and not being so grim, and tying into the Spider/Street line. Same for Punisher. Both series just took the right writer coming in and flipping things around.

Good writer is writer who is able to write series and make it interesting even without restart. Even he is able to do something like restart, but it doesn´t feel forcible, but more like new development of character. Magic, timetravel, or like DC without explanation is example of uncreativity. And again, if there is so much X and A series, other haven´t chance, no matter how good or interesting they are. Whether old character will have a history, or clean state, it will still be the same iconic character as you said. New Defenders are also new, even there are old defenders members, but it started without old baggage, so I don´t see any necessity for restarts. Restarts just drive me away from comics.

Originally posted by Blackcyclops Only person who knows the truth for a fact is Luna, Magneto has his suspicions but only Luna knows the honest to God truth.

Also Finesse and now Pym (and Tigra, if I remember it right) now know about him.

Originally posted by Kipe It's not genocide, we've already had this argument and the definition does not fit. Even saying she "wiped them out" is technically incorrect. She altered them. If you're looking for an appropriate analogy, it's like she said "no more ginger gene traits" or "no more recessive blue eye genes" and suddenly all people with these traits were blond/raven haired or brown eyed. That's more akin to what happened. Edit: As for Quicksilver's supposed complete sociopathic selfishness, it was OH SO SELFISH of him to manipulate his sister into giving the majority of his friends what they wanted most in the world all so he could avoid the murder of his sister at their hands, wasn't it now? Of course he made himself a Prince in the process, so I can see some selfishness there. The continuous "Yeah, Wolverine has killed thousands of people but..." just goes to show that there is a definite X-Fan bias taking place in this discourse.

Genocide is defined as the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an  ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
She attacked them. Altered them, but many of them died in that process and many other have destroyed lives, becauses they lived to be mutants, can´t handle it without their powers. Be mutant is more like being black, asian, jew, or gay, not like being ginger, or blue eyed. Blue eyes doesn´t defined you like your race, or orientation, or religion.
Quicksilver did good for mutants and his sister, but bad for humans, so it is 50/50.
And Wolverine killing bad guys. That can´t be considered as bad thing.

Originally posted by Kipe I'm just saying that X-Fans have no right to call for Wanda's head or demand that she be imprisoned and never again see the light of day unless they're willing to do the same for Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, and Charles Xavier.

Agree with Jean and Scott. But why Wolvie, or Beast? Killing bad guys in action isn´t crime, even for cops, or army.
Her powers are too big for everyone. If X-23 start to kill, they could stopped her. And it is not her willing decision if there is trigger scent, that is difference. Wiccan - there is just possibility to have her power, and maybe her insanity, but without proof. It is not possible to compare her, and most of other who commit bad things. Yes, they should be responsible, but there is difference. Mutants started to be part of populace, with their own culture, districts, votes, there starting to be a chance for them to be really part of the world. Wanda wipe out race, she take from them their chances (whether they will be again race or not) to acceptance. 198 mutants is just curiosity, like albino aligator, or two headed chicken, but not race worth of acceptance of world.

Originally posted by Blackcyclops I'm falling more with the das boots side of the argument...not sure I think that one mistake gets rid of all the good you have done OR that you can't sometimes bend the rules to help others.

I agree. But it wasn´t just mistake. It was her choice to play for a god and decided for the whole lives of others. She didn´t just burn their house, or steal money, or break their legs, or altered political system in their country. She changed what they were.


Edited by Cultar - 01-Feb-2012 at 10:08am

Don´t be angry for no reason.
Her choice was "no more mutants". Pietro coerce her to create HoM. She could just return all to normal, when she see that it didn´t working. Maybe it was from illnes, maybe she has flash of health, maybe it was from her perspective affected but what was before HoM and how it was during HoM, but Pietro has nothing to do  with it.

EDIT:
There is also important size of the act. If wolverine will be mind controlled by some evil villain and he killed some unimportant bystander, they will forget him and cover it because he wasn´t himself, he wasn´t responsible for his actions. But if he killed Jessica Jones, do you think Luke will forgive him? He will know that he wasn´t responsible and can´t be judge, but he will hate him forever (or at least until they will bring Jessica back).
If they will be just vigilant with her, but without grudge, it will be sick. There must be personal feelings with such big act. If it is personal, you don´t look much into fact as he was mind controlled, possessed by demon, or that she has mental problems.


Edited by Cultar - 01-Feb-2012 at 12:42pm

Wouldnt a solution be to just do to her what she willfully did to so many--depower her forever?

I still don't get what Jean did wrong. She erased a timeline...a post-Apocalyptic one. So if global warming destroys our world and decimates most of our population and we're ruled be an evil bastard and one of us went into the past to someone make it all better, would we be "bad" and need to be punished. Sure we erased lives but we also saved and created millions more. So no, I don't think Jean erasing a timeline of a dying Earth is bad, considering she instead created a timeline filled with potential and rebirth.

And again, I don't think Wanda should be killed. She's mentally ill AND she was manipulated into creating the HoM(though not into the whole "No More Mutants"). I just really think she needs to be kept somewhere and examined. Why not bring her to Utopia and have Xavier watch over her and tutor her. It would finally give him something to do.

Jean is dead. We cant punish her dead body, so is it really relevant?

Originally posted by Crawler Erasing a timeline is like genocide. Essentially, she erased Tom Skylark's existence, for example, off the map. Instead of wiping out an entire culture or race, she wiped out a future generation.

Yes but that world was on the brink. It wouldn't have survived another 300 years. We might as well charge Rachel and Bishop with attempted genocide then too. And currently Nathaniel Richards should be stopped before he commits genocide. Oh and Iron Lad, he should be blamed for attempted genocide too. Or any time travel who wants to prevent a doomed future. Rachel and Bishop both meant to erase their timelines they came from, to prevent their future from happening. That's exactly want Jean did. And before anyone says "But that future was ERASED..." Let's remember they said the same thing about AoA, so Here Comes Tomorrow living in an alternate reality isn't out of the question. And again Rachel and Bishop intended to ERASE their timelines and create new ones.

Again if you lived in some post-apocalyptic future, where the end was on the verge of collapse and millions dying and some evil dude trying to stop evolution, and you had the chance to go back in the past and create a future which instead of heading towards the end of the world is heading towards a new beginning, wouldn't you?

And who says Tom Syklark won't be born in the future? We've seen alternate realities were the same people hook up...so why can't his parents find each other in the better, safer world where not only would Tom Skylark be born, but where Tom Skylark himself could have children and grandchildren and great grandchildren?

Originally posted by das_boot Deaths Wanda is directly responsible for: Hydro, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, Vision, technically Jeffrey Garret. Three of those aren't mutants. Unless they're in some secret club where they're all part of a sub-species of humanity, that's not a genocide. She took powers. She didn't kill people. But that's cool, let's just start killing people, only if they've had a mental illness, though. Anyone who kills of their own accord, being in sound mind is fine.

There was also that Dragon create that died after being depowered...He didn't have a name but he meant something to someone, I'm sure! :-p.

I stand by the fact that Wanda needs to kept on Utopia or maybe some place like Muir Island until she can fully understand her powers and her mental condition. Maybe that's what AvX is leading too..

SPIN tech. Problem solved.

Two more things and I'm out:


One) Jean didn't just wipe out a post-apocalyptic future for Earth, she wiped out 150 years of history for an entire universe or reality. Just cut it away. While Earth may have sucked, we don't know how many other alien species, planets, and pocket dimensions had improved by that point.

Two) I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate against those that have called for Wanda to be put to death, wish to erroneously compare her to Hitler, think she should be put on trial and/or imprisoned for the rest of her life. Because unless you agree that the same should be done for all of the other examples Das Boot and I mentioned, you ARE being a hypocrite.

I'm totally fine with Wanda being depowered or rehabilitated and kept under close eye for some time to come. When it was first discovered that the Wandas Hank and Clint had encountered were doombots, my secret hope was that the Avengers would pull a Vision/Simon and place Wanda's essence or personality into one of her Wandabots. Then she could still be alive and still have some abilities and be able to be on a team but have have her probability and reality altering powers removed for the safety of the Omniverse.

SPINtech or rehabilitation by Xavier or Doctor Strange I'd be totally down for.

NO, BC, it's been decided. She must die. GOD.

What she did affected all mutants, so as for what should be done with her they should just ask Hope, the leader and savior of all mutantkind.

I'm not sure how much doom can be blamed for Wanda's apparent mental instability. Giving her an evil force that boosted her powers is one thing. But Wanda's actions resulted from what appeared to be deep rooted father issues and the loss of her imaginary children. I could believe that doom may have implanted mental suggestions in her to act on those issues, but the specific ness of her attacks seem too personal to write it all off as part of dooms plan. Even saying the evil force pushed her over the edge doesn't jive with the way HoM was written. She didn't lose control and start attacking everything she saw. she was able to cast specific spells with a desired effect that was inherent to issues that only she was having.

I can see doom maybe Manipulating her into causing disassembled, we know Pietro coerced her into HoM. No more mutants and the specific depowering of her family and Xavier seems too personal to be instigated by an outside force, especially when so many other well known powerful mutants kept their powers. If doom wanted mutants gone wouldn't he make sure the xmen would be the primary targets as opposed to Wanda's family? It just doesn't make sense from the story i read for this to be anything other than a case of Wanda having a mental break while armed with an incredibly unstable weapon ( the evil force/ her powers)



Edited by Lorr - 01-Feb-2012 at 8:14pm