Let's Talk The Jean Grey School

The discussion so far:

Originally posted by Kipe But he should let them defend themselves if they want to. What happens if a villain makes it all the way through the X-Men and teachers? Then it's just the kids left with no veterans to help as opposed to the kids who want to fight helping the X-Men/teachers get the upper hand. His side would make more sense if he just gave the student's choice. [it's about bringing them up in an environment more suited to children, and, to an extent, letting them grow into who they want to be. This is all well and good, but what about the students that want to be heroes but not live in an army or on Utopia in whatever condition it's in. What if they wanted more time to focus on school but also be a hero (a la Spiderman)? They don't get left with much of a choice do they? The kids have been screwed by Schism more than anybody. They were only given two choices, and they aren't like the other mutants on Utopia who could simply go off and take care of themselves. Most of them aren't legally able to do so. So they have two choices, and both kinda suck: Live on an Island with no vegetation and bombed out ruins and be part of an Army where you only have a voice if you're useful OR go to a school that gets attacked on a regular basis and get locked in another dimension every time said school is attacked and have no option of defending yourself ever.

Originally posted by Blackcyclops Well wasn't that the point of Logan's first arc was getting the school approved? I mean we have to assume the school was accredited under Xavier right? So that's the same thing Logan just did. SO I'm not sure how all of it is Logan's fault. He's following a school precedent, which since BEast and Iceman had jobs, must mean was accredited. If you want to point the finger at people for sequestering away teens from the real world, then look back at good ol'Chuck for starting the trend. Also, we don't know if all the kid's parents have abandoned them or if they actually are still in contact with them (hell Teon's parents tried to take him back recently). Unless that information is known, its not possible to say with certainty that every student at Logan's school can't opt out and go home. OR that they all didn't just choose to go to the school (like the numerous of X-Men and New Mutants, Generation X,etc before them). And I don't think you can compare Logan's paradigm to Cyclops' in that regard. But this is supposed to be the random thought thread lol, the one place where I can escape X-Men debates lol. I say create a thread and let's weigh in on it though, if you do feel strongly about it. Edit: Lucy Liu as Watson

Originally posted by Kipe What does Logan tryingto get accreditation for the school now have to do with anything? Are they getting credits for the classes we saw them receive on Utopia (ie: Emma's classes as shown in GenH)? We saw some students attend classes in San Fran but do we know how many did? It's just as logical to assume that a good portion of the kids weren't even getting any credited education (since we didn't see it)in the year that they lived on Utopia. Have they had any credited education since M-Day? Are they two-three years behind on graduating from a normal public school now? Did you see Amara trying to get a job? She's one of the pretty mutants. If Bling or Match went job hunting how do you think it would go? And we do know for a fact that at least Hellion, Blindfold, Quentin Quire, Ernst, Surge, The Cuckoos, and Dust have nobody else to take them in. So Logan is trying to get accreditation. Great. They still can either live on Utopia or go to this school that they might be able to graduate from maybe close to on time because if they go to public or private high schools they will graduate when they're twenty.

All great questions. But until information is provided one way or the other your assumptions are just as good as anyone elses.

And I never once in my entire argument said anything about Utopia. Oh wait I did, I said that Cyclops' paradigm is vastly different than Logan's. But besides that, I was in no way saying anything about what is learned on Utopia as going towards a "normal" life. Because Utopia isn't trying to teach kids to be lawyers or doctors, its teaching them to be soldiers in the former Xavier, now Cyclops mutant paramilitary organization.

We do know that Logan's school is now accredited, following the last arc. So it will take some actual information to say what level their education will take them to. Its very possible that in the MU with so much exotic knowledge being around, that businesses (like say Roxxon or Stark whatever) will hire someone with a non-traditional education.

Edited by Blackcyclops - 28-Feb-2012 at 6:06pm

Well I think it is about the JGS, because no one is arguing against what you are saying about Utopia. I mean I've stated it right above you. The students at Utopia are there to train to be soldiers in the new paramilitary. It isn't about a normal life, so all those concerns you have don't mean anything for them since that's kinda the life they signed up for staying there.

Logan's school is under similar principles as Xavier's school. The kids acquire skills and knowledge there so that they can go out and live lives. Now are you saying that some of them actually want to be there and thus are choosing to stay there or be in some sort of povery? Or are you saying, IF they didn't want to be there where would they go?

And really would under 18 year old teens live on their own not in poverty/lower working class conditions anyway? I mean outside of the few exceptions. Most of the runaway population is under 18 yr olds in impoverish situations. So I'm not sure if the living on JGS is worse than that in those regards.

Family being murdered is a possibility for all of them just because there mutants or are you saying that's also the fault of Logan at the JGS?

And how is what Logan post-Schism doing any different than what others have done, at least in the regard of sequestering mutant teens away from the world and giving them a different kind of training?

Really your argument against the school is really a potentially strong one against the whole X-School as a vehicle of change idea since Xavier first started the school and re-opened it bigger under Morrison. But its become burned into the psyche of fans. So much so that when the X-Men start to adventure too much and not have that school element, many hardcore fans do not like it.

Edited by Blackcyclops - 28-Feb-2012 at 6:53pm

Re-posted for emphasis:

Really your argument against the school is really a potentially strong one against the whole X-School as a vehicle of change idea since Xavier first started the school and re-opened it bigger under Morrison. But its become burned into the psyche of fans. So much so that when the X-Men start to adventure too much and not have that school element, many hardcore fans do not like it.

BC you're missing the point. He's not arguing the literary fallacy of having a school set-up in an action comic. From how I read it, he's simply saying that if any of us was a X-kid right now, we'd feel like we're getting a pretty raw deal with the two choices available to us.

Edited by Charles - 28-Feb-2012 at 7:03pm

Oh I know the intention of Kipe's arguments are not against the school. He's arguing about the lifestyle/life choices available to the students because of the circumstances placed on them. I got that, unless I'm wrong there.

My argument became, after our initial conversation:

1) The argument isn't as poignant when it relates to the Utopia kids because its like they've already chosen that type of life. The JGS kids are the ones who probably (this is my assuming of course) have wishes of doing something else, so I felt they were the important focus on the discussion. Not the kids who really give no care about having another option it seems.

2) Following the exclusion of the Utopia kids (which leaves with Logan's kids): Logan's school is running the same basis ideology as Xavier's. THat the best (read: only) way for mutant kids to survive is to join this "school".

3) I then kinda went off tangentially discussing the faults of living on your own. And asked some questions that I should have addressed as being generally and not just at Kipe. So I apologize.

4) Then I ended (the repost) with saying that Kipe has actually made potential points (I'm sorry if it came off like I was saying he intentionally made them, moreso it was me growing something from them) arguing against the concept of the X-school. Because his argument that they have a raw deal in life, part of it stems from this original notion created by Xavier that mutants to be safe have to be taught in this special environment. Of course Xavier thought they should be traind as a paramilitary force too, which differs from Logan's thinking. But the general idea is the same.

So yes I got what Kipe was saying, I wasn't so much trying to argue with him, as take his ideas a step further.

There I hope that clears it up so I don't get anymore all-caps LOL

Edited by Blackcyclops - 28-Feb-2012 at 7:24pm

The Utopia kids absolutely belong in this conversation, because with either side, the kids have to deal with an everyday life that involves being attacked by ridiculous enemies wanting to destroy them. Even though the JGS kids want to avoid that, they ironically seem to be even bigger targets than the Utopia kids. Just because the Utopia kids made the the clearer unpopular choice, as you pointed out, doesn't invalidate Kipe's point that it is a sucky choice.

Hence, my reiteration of Kipe's point: Choose between a military base that prepares you to be attacked at anytime or a school that avoids it but ultimately gets attacked more as a result. Woo-hoo, where do I sign up?   

Paramilitary training + attacked on a regular basis. A nice blend of Utopia/JGS. It's almost the same option.

They can be Superheroes, be in the Army, or go to boarding school.

Why are any of the kids even on Utopia or at Westchester?

Not anymore. They're accepting all super-powered students. The originals are the "special class" of potential-super-villains now.

Did you miss that issue of New Mutants? It was the last one I read before dropping the title. It's the first issue of the Blink arc. Amara has NO work history. Or any history that she can put on an application for that matter.

I wonder what X-Corporations looks like on a job app.

Originally posted by Kipe They can be Superheroes, be in the Army, or go to boarding school. Why are any of the kids even on Utopia or at Westchester?

Probably because there's a serious trust issue with how the government has dealt with mutants in the past. 

You let ONE bus full of children explode...

@Kipe I was thinking the exact same thing.

Although I'm surprised not one mutant has actively given the finger to both Utopia and JGS and decided to take his/her chances at a relatively normal life away from the groups in the spotlight. I could totally see Chamber doing this.

Edited by Charles - 28-Feb-2012 at 8:22pm