Let's Talk The Jean Grey School

Originally posted by Anna Raven Option 7 - hope I'm cute enough to join the Future Foundation.

THIS...because I'm definitely not smart enough.

Originally posted by Kipe So if you were a mutant child/teenager which side would you choose?

As a teen I would have decided which of my fellow young mutants I most wanted to have sex with, and then went where they went.

They've been doing combat training? Outside of the appearances of the Danger Room/Building in WatX 1 I haven't seen them actively doing drills and training the fight. Wouldn't that go against Logan's philosophy? I know they are being taught how to control their powers but I don't believe we've had a scene in Legacy or WatX where students are training to fight and learning combat skills.

Originally posted by _Rick_ The difference if that they are not send to the forefront of crises and the staff also tries to help them cope with their issues (instead of treating them as soldiers without feelings).

I'm thinking you're taking this a bit too far. It's not that Cyclops sends the students in as the first line.

When Wolverine threatened to bomb Utopia (in Schism #4) he wasn't thinking of all the kids there. He just said get off the island. I never understood that by the way. How could he jeopardize the lives of the students... it felt a bit off. Especially for someone who's on the verge of starting the JGS.

The school pretending at being an actual school is nice and all, but unless either side of the X-Men quit burning bridges and start building business relationships, neither side really prepares the X-kids to be adults or to survive as non X-Men.  Utopia is one fight after another, so then it's "Welcome to the rest of your life, survive as long as you can."  The Jean Grey School as well is one fight after another with "Survive as long as you can... by the way I need that essay by Thursday."

Childhood is about learning to be an adult, which is not effectively established anywhere in the X-franchise.  So personally, I can look at the technical aspects of the story, but both sides fail to accurately ascribe a sense of "childhood development."  Holding classes doesn't make something a proper school anymore than cooking food in your own kitchen makes you a restaurant.


Edited by Ciel - 08-Apr-2012 at 12:24am

Like I said, it's playing at school.  The school is only as viable as the teachers have the luxury to hold classes.  As soon as it becomes inconvenient, the whole thing falls apart.  Teaching is not their occupation, it's their hobby.

If anything, they do more because they have more resources.  Public schools could produce similar curricula if granted access to those resources.  If the X-Men were teaching out of a run-down building with worn out textbooks like a lot of those K-12 schools you're referring to, then the quality of education wouldn't be nearly the same.  Or maybe it would be -- you have plenty of well-meaning smart people in regular schools doing more with less.  Are the X-Men capable of that? We've seen them operate at times under the radar, more as scavengers taking what they need from defeated enemies, but they've never had to operate a school like that and I doubt they could.

So as it stands, Cyclops was right, basically (I know, you never thought you'd hear me say that).  Any semblance of a school is a luxury, only as viable as the adult X-Men make it.  And because of that, if they're not producing more X-Men, then the school's functions will become impossible to maintain from simply a security standpoint.  And there's still no self-determination.

Let's not forget -- the school isn't something that we ever saw the kids ask for.  They were allowed to choose (some of them) where they wanted to go, but effectively Wolverine was going to make a school even if nobody else wanted to join him.  It's for the kids but it's not about the kids for most of the X-Men who are even there.

So the question is whether Cyclops's general ambivalence toward children is better or worse than Wolverine's manipulation of children to make himself feel better.


Edited by Ciel - 08-Apr-2012 at 4:09am

X-Men age, get crippled, get tired, become villains, are lost in other dimensions, die, etc.

As the X-Men go, if their numbers aren't constantly replaced by the next generation of mutants, then there won't be a school because there won't be anybody to defend it.

As for self-determination, it's like I've said in the past.  These kids are going to become X-Men.  Nobody's given them a real alternative life path.  Nobody really wants that for them.  So whether you make them X-Men now, or 4 years from now, ultimately makes no difference.

Originally posted by Frans I'm thinking you're taking this a bit too far. It's not that Cyclops sends the students in as the first line.

Isn't it?

Gen Hope gets sent to deal with dangerous situations unsupervised all the time with Scott's consent. This is made worse by the fact that he is aware that Hope has some control over them and therefore they aren't 100% able to decide for themselves if they want to risk their lives.

Cyclops' has also used the other kids in the frontlines when he keeps highly trained X-men as reserve. One example was in Curse of the Mutants. He had several kids outside Utopia to defend against the vampire invasion (while many trained x-men were inside protected). He even watched passively while vampire Wolverine was trashing the kids. Meanwhile he had a mechanism that could reverted Wolverine to his right mind which he didn't activate before he made the kids fight Logan because......it was more dramatic that way (seriously there was no good reason to make the kids fight Wolverine). Wolverine could have killed Armor for instance.

Originally posted by Frans When Wolverine threatened to bomb Utopia (in Schism #4) he wasn't thinking of all the kids there. He just said get off the island. I never understood that by the way. How could he jeopardize the lives of the students... it felt a bit off. Especially for someone who's on the verge of starting the JGS.

I'm sorry but now I think you are the way going a bit fair with the "wolverine wasn't thinking of all the kids".

I agree that Wolverine was a little manic in that confrontation. The reason being to escalate things and give a more defensive position to Cyclops side. If we had a really calm and well spoken Wolverine, Cyclops would come out of it looking worse (particularly considering he was the one that physically attacked first).

That being said, you can't say Logan wasn't thinking about the kids. He planned to use the bomb as a way to force Cyke's hand and get the kids out to safety. His plan was to sacrifice himself if needed to give the kids an escape route and blow the sentinel to pieces (preventing it from following). How is that not thinking of them?

Also bear in mind that Scott KNEW the sentinel would not attack anyone outside Utopia (Jeffries told him it's programming). They could have evacuated the island, let it get smash a bit by the sentinel, and waited for the experienced X-men to arrive (they were on their way) or bomb it from a distance. Scott wanted to risk himself and the kids to make an ideological stand. There's an argument to be made for that stand for sure (I'm not saying that there isn't). Logan's view was that their priority should be the kids, not a rock, and what was at stake ("a line in the sand") wasn't worth risking the kids lives.


Ciel, while I understand what you say, nothing will ever be perfect and prepare the kids 100% for life by itself. However, JGS to me gains major points for at least trying to help kids cope with their issues and placing them first. Whilst Utopia loses major points for letting what was/is going on with the lights go on for as long as it did/does without trying to help them just so Hope is appeased and safe.

Hey Ciel im agreeing with you for the most part...save the date lol

Originally posted by _Rick_ Wolverine had the bomb on a trigger and was staying behind (he didn't arm it and left without checking) to make sure it would detonate at the right time with the kids outside the island. He didn't detonate it as soon as the sentinel arrived and as soon as he saw there was no way to get the kids out of it he dropped the trigger.He didn't endanger them with the bomb.

Actually in X-Men Schism #4 he says and I quote: "I just armed 2000 pounds of plastic explosives and when that thing gets close enough, I'm blowing it all to hell. It's over". Then he was holding the mechanism all issue long and into issue #5. I never saw him drop it... He probably dropped it when the students began fighting the Sentinel. That would be plausible. Still, it's a matter of opinion, I think it's an extremely dangerous (and riskful) action to prove your point.

What do you think of the whole risk Wolverine put Kid Omega through? I don't think it fits his philosophy of the JGS.

Originally posted by _Rick_ He did arm it but didn't leave. He kept the trigger in his hand the whole time and didn't press it (even when the sentinel was already in the island). He was going to sacrifice himself to make sure the bomb detonated at the right circumstances.As soon as he saw that the kids had returned he dropped the trigger (I'm looking at those panels in issue #5 right now). There's a clear sequence where he looks at the kids advancing towards the sentinel, looks at his hand holding the trigger, and them throws it on the floor and advances against the sentinels. He clearly didn't want to detonate the bomb with the kids there.

You're 100% right on that one. I missed these panels . Looking at them right now.

Originally posted by _Rick_ As for the Kid Omega thing, like I've said before, Wolverine isn't perfect. Never said he was. He is flawed (they all are). But there's a huge difference between what Cyclops does (putting the kids directly into violent and dangerous combat even the ones who he knows aren't making that decision themselves) and taking a kid to a Casino and then tell him to run for safety when things go sour.He shouldn't have taken QQ to the casino (he was naïve in thinking that they could pull it off), but he didn't send him into battle. He specifically told him to leave him and run (which is also what he wanted the kids to do in Schism). You just can't compare the two.

I think Wolverine was fully aware of what he was doing. He just needed the money and Quintin's powers. Wasn't this the most dangerous casino in the Universe or something?

I understand your explanations and your plea for Wolverine being a good teacher as opposed to Cyclops and all that. But I'm still not buying it. I don't think the children are better off at the JGS in HIS hands.

I still think Wolverine comes around somewhat hypocritical. And not the right man for the task of headmaster. Kitty Pryde or Rogue would be much more acceptable choices. Even Beast, Rachel or Iceman.

Although the question is, does the JGS make them more suitable to be X-Men, since until something drastically changes within the company that they actually give their characters some "regular jobs" that's what they're going to be.  Rick mentioned that the JGS school psych sessions being a necessary differential.  Anybody could have asked that Dr. Grimm extend his services beyond the New Mutants (somebody had to be paying to fly him in and I doubt it was Moonstar herself).  And as the old X-Factor comics showed, Dr. Leonard Samson could be very effective in counseling mutants (including the very very not-an-adult-yet Rahne Sinclair... he even came back into the pages of the X books after M-Day, not to mention the psychologist that Kitty used in Mekanix Rachel went to go see.

But, and BC can remind you that I'm not a Cyclops fan, I don't believe that the school is a "better place" because as I've indicated given that the destinations (X-Men members) of these characters are the same, I don't believe that putting them up in a school matters much to anything.  There's nothing that they're doing at the JGS school that they couldn't have done at Utopia if they even bothered.  It's like Cyclops said, Wolverine was absentee most of the time he was even given the chance at that school to mentor the kids.

But, we're looking at two people in different roles and trying to compare them.

Cyclops is the general trying to keep his fort from falling apart, with a lot of responsibility that he was asked to take on and frankly nobody can afford for him not to.  Wolverine is a highwayman who does whatever on a whim, only having as much responsibility as he chooses to have and routinely abandoning his core responsibilities for others that could be handled without him.  Maybe, between those two, Wolverine could grab slightly more leisure time to set up a school, but is either one really the best thing for the kids?

Why should the younglings have nothing more to consider than what they feel to be the lesser of two evils?  This is their lives after all.  The grown-ups are gonna do whatever they feel like.  It's still selfish either way, but I feel it's more selfish to have educational "stunts" that don't actually create new avenues for a future for them.  Stunting their development by trying to help them reclaim their childhood right at the time they should be growing out of that childhood is not going to be helpful.

And really, maybe one or two of the X-Men among the staff at the JGS (I'd say Beast and Karma, most likely... maybe Rogue) would know that, but Karma seems to just be a punchclock worker with no influence or seat at staff meetings, Rogue's too busy being a mother hen to realize she's actually hindering their growth, and Beast is only there to stick it to Cyclops so he doesn't really care.

So yeah.  The school is not a good idea, unless you actually have the point of the school being that you don't want these people to become X-Men.  As soon as you do all the training that Cyclops would give them, then you're still making people too afraid of them to want to hire them and if the kids can't get jobs then the only people who'll welcome them into adult occupation will be the X-Men.  Better to just tell them now that their lives are over, treat them like equals, and bring in a shrink once a week and just call it a day.

And BC, you used to agree with me all the time until you started your rebellious phase.  You're the Kid Omega to my Wolverine. 


Edited by Ciel - 08-Apr-2012 at 6:35pm