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X-Men Members Part II |
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Monolith 
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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 Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 10:13pm |
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I think then, Aces, people are letting preview material and solicitations color their understanding of what actually happened. Medium, Md...in Messiah CompleX, Cyclops came to Wolverine and said we need a team to do the dirty work, so let's assemble the X-Force. Are you trying to say that Cyclops will come to Wolverine AGAIN in X-Force #1, and tell him AGAIN they need to assemble a wetwork team known as X-Force, only he'll "really mean it" the second time? No, I'm sorry -- Occam's Razor demands the simplest solution. And which sounds simpler to you, (1) Cyclops and Wolverine assemble X-Force in MC, and that team will go on to appear in the X-Force title, or (2) Cyclops and Wolverine assemble a team of X-Men in MC, but call them X-Force, and then a few months later they assemble another team called X-Force, with the same roster as before, but this time they are NOT also a team of X-Men?
Also, if the MC X-Force is just a squad of X-Men, then you must also think Wolfsbane and X-23 are X-Men now as well, correct?
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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medium13
Limbo moderator 
Joined: 09-Apr-2007 Location: New York Online Status: Offline Posts: 729 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 12:49am |
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[QUOTE=Monolith]Are you trying to say that Cyclops will come to Wolverine AGAIN in X-Force #1, and tell him AGAIN they need to assemble a wetwork team known as X-Force, only he'll "really mean it" the second time?
No, I meant to liken it to being on the Gold/Blue Strikeforces, especially from the other character's perspectives. If they don't know about the X-Force, than Caliban is acting as an X-Man.
The difference between Caliban and X-23 and Wolfsbane is they are acting members of X-Factor and the New X-Men. At that point in time to the charcters Caliban is either a) a member of the Uncanny team along with Warpath, Nightcrawler, and Hep or b) what your describing an associate who happened to be in the right place at the right time. My problem with that interpretation is, as many posters noted there are other 'associates' that last we knew were at the mansion, Karma, Husk, Magma...where are they? Cyclops rallied the teams to find the baby.
I see all your points Monolith, they are well made (you're obviously going to be a good lawyer) but I think its a shame to interpret Cyclops words as a "general term" for hero. How much more express need it be?
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Monolith
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 1:22am |
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Okay, I understand what you're saying now. Cyclops and Wolverine presented this new unit openly as just a team of trackers sent to Cable, not as "X-Force -- They Do What Needs Doing". X-Force exists, but as far as the other X-Men and the "official record" is concerned they don't, which is why Cyclops referred to Caliban as an "X-Man" in front of others.
I still don't agree. Cyclops or Wolverine openly referred to their unit as "X-Force" several times in the presence of others -- in front of Bishop and Emma Frost when Scott sent them to Muir Island, in front of Bishop and the united Marauders just after stabbing Regan, and in front of EVERYBODY in the final chapter when Scott sent X-Force after Predator X. Now, you could argue that X-Force's true purpose as a black ops unit is still "quiet", but the NAME of the unit is really at issue here, and they were undeniably open with tossing that around.
Even if that were otherwise, dening membership because of that unit to Wolfsbane and X-23 has to also deny membership to Caliban. If the X-Force members don't receive X-Men membership based on being part of that unit, then we can only base their membership status on events not related to their X-Force status. For Caliban, that means the Extremists arc and his presence in MC up until the formation of X-Force (or rather, his lack of presence).
As I've said before, I cannot believe Caliban was made an X-Man in Extremists. Corner box logo aside, he did nothing to indicate membership. The arc ended rather abruptly, so we didn't even see Caliban come home with the X-Men or indicate where he was going next at all, leaving it up in the air until the next arc...Messiah CompleX. Caliban was completely absent from MC until X-Force formed. This does not suggest that he stayed with the team after Extremists, especially since no mention is made of Leech either, whom Caliban would most likely have been travelling with. What IS possible, however, is that Caliban was one of many former X-Men and allies (Archangel, Storm, Forge, Bishop, etc) who was not with the team prior to MC, but returned and got involved due to the desperate nature of the situation.
As for Cyke's statement, it's not a matter of express-ness, but contradiction. We know Caliban was a member of X-Force -- to say he was also a member of the X-Men simultaneously is a contradiction unless your name is Wolverine. And even Logan has never claimed to be acting as an X-Man and a New Avenger simultaneously. The past instances I mentioned above where "X-Man" is used as a generic term provides the solution to the contradiction -- Scott was characterizing Caliban's heroism and actions, not his official roster membership.
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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Daytripper
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Joined: 21-Feb-2007 Location: New Zealand Online Status: Online Posts: 913 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 1:43am |
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I don't mean to open another "can of worms" here, but isn't this similar to New X-Men #130, Xavier said 'To me, my X-Men' when referring to X-Corporation members Monet, Siryn, Madrox, Rictor and Cannonball. [Darkstar was slain at that time].
Now Cannonball was already and X-Man, but just because Xavier addressed the others as X-Men doesn't mean they are X-Men. They never served on an actual X-Men roster, but another splinter group.
One could argue that anyone who has been involved in Xavier's dream could be called an "X-Man" whether it means serving on the X-Men, Excalibur or the Underground.
I don't agree that Caliban should be called an X-Man, but that he died in a similar situation to Darkstar - tragically while involved in an X-Men related adventure, and therefore, honored *like* an X-Man, but not as an X-Man.
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AcesX1X
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Joined: 12-Apr-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 34 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 1:48am |
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@Daytripper:
Not to derail the topic any, but that is one SEXY avatar! |
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"We can play happy homecoming later but now we need you inside! Walk or be herded!"
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medium13
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Joined: 09-Apr-2007 Location: New York Online Status: Offline Posts: 729 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 1:57am |
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LOL Aces, i think the same thing everytime I see it.
Back on topic - It's not a can of worms at all, I'm relunctantly starting to agree.
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Monolith
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 4:48am |
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Indeed, Daytripper -- that line from New X-Men is the backbone of my whole argument against Caliban. I remember back in '02 having this same discussion with people who were claiming all of the X-Corporation agents were now X-Men members because of what Xavier said. The passage of time has proven that the majority of people and sources have chosen NOT to recognize them as members because of the "To me, my X-Men" line. Those events are what set the precedent and encourage me to make the same determination when it comes to Caliban.
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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Sifo Dyas
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Joined: 15-Apr-2007 Location: So Cal Online Status: Offline Posts: 18 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 6:19am |
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I'm sold. Caliban was an ally of the X-Men on an adventure (or two in this case) and was a brief member of X-Force before his death... So back to Nate Grey. An official X-Man or not? I always felt he was...
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Monolith
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 6:31am |
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Wheee!
As for Nate Grey, I think the argument about him always comes down to the interpretation of the last line of X-Men #92. CYclops, Phoenix and Wolverine say, "We are the X-Men!" The question comes about what happened after that -- did they assemble a new roster with Archangel, Cable and Nate Grey, or did they just call in allies for help? I think it was a new roster.
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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don1968
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Joined: 31-Jan-2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 38 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 7:39am |
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I HOPE i am on topic. First I have the three issue AXM as well as the X-men #92 and I believe that the AXM roster were official x-men, because at the time no one knew that xavier was just trying to reveal a threat to the group. I think the AXM members were x-men until the team reformed before the twelve storyline.
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Daytripper
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Joined: 21-Feb-2007 Location: New Zealand Online Status: Online Posts: 913 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 7:57am |
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@ Aces and Medium - cheers, I should post more often then
@ Monolith - damn straight.
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RingOtaku
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Joined: 17-Apr-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 657 |
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Posted: 02-Feb-2008 at 7:07pm |
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What a debate. I would say Caliban was not as of now because the whole "X-Force" thing. Nate Grey? I'd have to look back over the issues in question to determine how I view that "squad" and it's official status.
Daytripper- Just don't post so much you lose that title of best issue summarizer. ;) My definitions for being an X-Man official member is a bit simplistic: Multiple missions with a core squad showing that you clearly meant to be an important part of the X-Men group. Then I have X-Ally referring to those who were only on splinter groups Finally X-People to refer to mansion staff or other non-mission people who are living there. Nurse Annie, Tom Corsi, etc. |
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Alex I do everything like a hawk.
This isn't DC Comics -- Marvel continuity doesn't die out if you don't water it often enough. The whole Batman idea is a very childish response to childhood trauma. |
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Havok73
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Joined: 16-May-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 21 |
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Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 10:15am |
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I tend to agree that Caliban is not an X-man, but I'm still not sure about Hepzibah. She, unlike Caliban, accompanied the X-men on the mission seemingly as one of them. She also answered the Cuckoos call to all X-men in World War Hulk X-men. None of these events confirm or deny her status as a team member, I guess someone should ask Ed Brubaker.
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Monolith
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 10:55am |
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Now where's the fun in that? :-) And besides, intentions don't make reality -- Bendis clearly intended Ronin to join his New Avengers (the character was spotlighted on cover after alternate cover for over a year), but in the end, the actual story came out and Maya Lopez ended up going her own way until after Civil War.
I'd also note that X-Factor and Excalibur heard the Cuckoos' cry as well.
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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shmoo
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Joined: 07-Apr-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 81 |
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Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 1:06pm |
Hmmm... so is Changeling a member? |
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Formerly shmaggle
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Redguard
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Joined: 21-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 62 |
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Posted: 03-Feb-2008 at 2:30pm |
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I would count him. He was actually asked by a member to replace.
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Sifo Dyas
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Joined: 15-Apr-2007 Location: So Cal Online Status: Offline Posts: 18 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 3:26am |
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Professor X asked the reformed mutant villian, Changeling, from Factor Three to join the X-Men and impersonate Xavier while he was away. Changeling was actually the first X-Men to die. He is recongnized by Marvel as an X-Men. Good enough for me...
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Guests
Guest Group 
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 9:19am |
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Wasnt that Paulie Provenzano a temporary x-Man too?
Also, I dont think Mystique and Lady Mastermind should count... althought they were accepted, It seems like they (at least Mystique was) were planning on betraying them all along.
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medium13
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Joined: 09-Apr-2007 Location: New York Online Status: Offline Posts: 729 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 9:28am |
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Well, Paulie's with the Eve of Destruction team - theyaren't listed because generally they aren't thought of as temporary X-Men, but more allies that were recruited as a fill in since the team had little man power at that point. There's some explanation of that in the earlier posts and another link found in one of Monolith's posts on the same topic.
Joining under false pretenses with the intention to betray from within do make tricky roster issues, but even as traitors, they acknowledge membership as X-Men. Lady M calls herself "X-Man retired". And before their intentions were revealed they were accepted, so I think they qualify.
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Monolith
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 9:36am |
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Paulie Provenzano, Northstar, Frenzy, Sunpyre and Wraith were all "interim X-Men" during the Eve of Destruction storyline. They were only involved for one mission and then left at the end. I consider them true members, but many people don't. I believe part of the reasoning is that there was a line in one of the issues that basically said Scott, Jean and Logan were still the only active X-Men, after the recruit of the others.
Lady Mastermind did not have the time to make contact with the Marauders and arrange long term plans between waking up out of her coma and being officially chosen for Rogue's team against the Children of the Vault. Was she ever going to be the most loyal of members? No. Did she jump at the first chance to pull one over on them? Yep. But she still joined the team.
Mystique will always have her own agenda, especially due to all the information Destiny has given her over the years. And she didn't join the X-Men in order to betray them, but rather to be close enough to Rogue to save her when the time came. She joined with an agenda, but so does everyone, honestly.
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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Redguard
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Joined: 21-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 62 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 9:55am |
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Yeah, the way I viewed the situation was that Lady M had no connection to the Marauders until Omega Sentinel was posessed by Malice. Lady M probably realized she was going to get massacred with the other X-Men so jumped ship.
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medium13
Limbo moderator
Joined: 09-Apr-2007 Location: New York Online Status: Offline Posts: 729 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 10:09am |
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Really? That's not how I interpretted the scene. I thought she had knowledge that Karima is about to be possessed, just from the art since the text reveals nothing.
Edited by medium13 - 04-Feb-2008 at 10:30am |
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Redguard
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Joined: 21-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 62 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 10:36am |
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The reason I see it that way is because as Monolith said, there wouldn't have been any time for her to be recruited to the Marauders. Do you think that Mystique filled Lady M on what was going on? That might be a possibility. Then again, we now know Mystique's agenda was simply to save Rogue, so would she have bothered recruiting Lady M. Unless of course she was instructed by Sinister to bring Lady M in. So many possibilities.
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Sifo Dyas
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Joined: 15-Apr-2007 Location: So Cal Online Status: Offline Posts: 18 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 11:13am |
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The Eve of Destruction group (Dazzler, Northstar, Omerta, Wraith, Sunpyre & Cargillin) in my eyes was just a team of allies put together for one mission out of need. Just as the Planet X group (Cyke, Fantomex & all those kids) in the New X-Men arc, the Phalanx Covenant group (Sabertooth, Banshee, Jubilee, Emma, etc), Muir Island group (uh too many...) and even the Messiah Complex group (Angel, Caliban, Forge, Hepzibah, Storm, etc).
I am convinced neither Caliban or Hepzibah were X-Men after further reading the Extremist & Messiah Complex arc's. Sorry, just allies...
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Monolith
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Joined: 20-Feb-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2623 |
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Posted: 04-Feb-2008 at 11:17pm |
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My argument for the EoD team has always been that if they stuck around after EoD, people would have considered them X-Men. AND people would have assumed their memberships "started" with UXM #392, not whenever they chose to stick around long term. I then direct attention to the team from Giant-Sized X-Men #1, a clear parallel drawn in EoD itself, and the fact that Sunfire is considered a member of the X-Men even though he left immediately after the "mission of need" was concluded.
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Charisma: the fine line between winning them over with charm and ruling them by fear.
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