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things Rob Liefeld did right

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  Quote marhawkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: things Rob Liefeld did right
    Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 3:43pm

Even hacks get things right every now and then.  So what did Liefeld get right?


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  Quote The Bub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 6:21pm

Unlike some of the other Image founders, I didn't keep up with Liefeld for very long, so I'm not sure what aspects of his game peaked during the Marvel years and what developed over time. With that said, I liked the direction New Mutants took when he grabbed the reigns. I think every Image artist other than Larsen was given too much free reign with plotting the books they were on, but Liefeld had Fabian Nicieza, Mr. Indefatigable himself, scripting with him. New Mutants had no real direction when he came aboard with Cable, and X-Force was a theme worth exploring; instead of being reactionary dolts who just sit around wallowing in persecution until their mansion gets blown up (again), take the fight to the enemy thats causing all the hate. Cable as a character caught a lot of flak for being a one note macho vending machine of manliness with tiny feet, but I think people hate him more for the shoulder pad/dual pouch garter trend that he created more than anything Cable did or said; I always thought Cable was a pretty intriguing character that got mushed up by editorial planning. I was also a fan of Shatterstar. Yeah he was kind of generic and whatnot, but every team needs a laconic brawler, and Shatterstar brought the goods. I actually liked Liefeld's asexual monk concept much more than Peter David's fan service device, but I digress. I'm never going to be a huge fan of his art or writing, but I'm thankful to Rob for creating X-Force (I think the Nicieza/Capullo run of the book was the best thing about 90's X books), and for forming Image comics. Youngblood might not be particularly good in any sense of the word, but Rob helped a lot establishing a third party to help creator's negotiate contracts with the Big Two and a sandbox for them to place creations they want to hold onto.

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  Quote grief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 8:25pm
He's made a sh*t ton of money despite being one of the worst artists I've ever seen. 
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  Quote --D. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 9:43pm
He took over NMU when I was about 12, and I began reading that title right about then.  I thought it was pretty good, but it was my least favorite of the core X-Books.  I liked the exciting art and the new character designs.  It was kewl.  Eventually, though, I found X-Force to be pretty boring.

A recently picked up the Cable and the New Mutants TPB for $5.00 and tried to read it.  It was awful.  All of it.  Unreadable.  I donated it to the library.  I hope they threw it in the trash. 

The only thing Rob Liefeld did right was trick 12-year-old boys into thinking his "art" was awesome.
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  Quote Anti-Limbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 9:49pm
I was gonna start a thread like this but never got around to it.
 
Anyways, I always thought his art had a ton of potential and actually like it up to a point. When I read those later issues of NM and early issues of X-Force I am always reminded of the days when I first started reading comics on a regular basis. Say what you want about his work now (and it is bad for a pro) it drew many people in even if some of them didn't stay around. Aside from that I think if he had grown as an artist and wasn't so lazy--his words--I have to think that his work would have improved and comic book history wouldn't look back at him so harshly. I must admit that I liked his Warlock even though his take on him is simplified.
 
The direction he was taking NM in, I feel was a good one. As The Bub said, the book was going nowhere fast, so the change in direction was welcome and exciting for the time. I liked that he brought Warpath closer into the X-fold. I appreciate Shatterstar, Feral, the MLF(particularly Tempo), and Domino and feel like the X-World is more diverse for having all the characters that he invented in it, regardless of how you feel ultimately about their quality. A 'bad character' can always be salvaged.
20 years later and I'm still waiting on the Hell's Belles to show back up.
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  Quote sleezoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2010 at 4:42am
He did Levis comercials.
Be excellent to each other.
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  Quote cloneX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2010 at 4:49am

LOL. I cant think of anything he did right except leave Marvel the first time.

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  Quote das_boot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2010 at 4:53am
He made a very well-thought out argument about one of his prized characters being written as gay by another writer, was incredibly respectful to the LGB community whilst expressing these views, and gave the writer kudos for giving the character a new breath of life and an actual personality, instead of forgetting that he ever existed.

 
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  Quote The Bub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2010 at 10:39pm
Is it just me or are the gleeful Liefeld insults about as original as Liefeld's tendency towards shoulder pads and cellphone sized bluetooth devices? John Byrne called and he wants his pettiness back. Don't get me started on Peter David.
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  Quote EvilMonkeyPope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 12:13am
He realized that pouches are a useful part of any costume. I don't care if they're unfashionable.
He designed a great costume for Deadpool which hasn't changed much in 20 years.
He put Cannonball in lavender, which will never stop being amusing.
He convinced Alan Moore to write for him.
His Youngblood concept was refined into X-Statix and Ultimates.
His style is consistent and idiosyncratic.
He didn't stick around on the X-books for too long.
His interpretation of anatomy is always funny.
He's managed to remain a talking point despite not contributing musch to the medum.
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  Quote Anti-Limbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 3:41am
I think Art Adams put Cannonball in lavender first but Rob brought it back later.
A few pouches actually makes a lot of sense--provided you actually acknowledge that there is something in them.
20 years later and I'm still waiting on the Hell's Belles to show back up.
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  Quote EvilMonkeyPope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 4:17am
You're right, which only bolsters my love of Art Adams.
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  Quote das_boot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 4:26am
Originally posted by The Bub

Is it just me or are the gleeful Liefeld insults about as original as Liefeld's tendency towards shoulder pads and cellphone sized bluetooth devices? John Byrne called and he wants his pettiness back. Don't get me started on Peter David.


Apologies for being offended at Liefeld's assumption that one is unable to be both a 'tough superhero' and also bi/homosexual.
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  Quote The Bub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 3:53pm
I think the reason Rob's art was so popular initially is when you first glance at the sheer amount of lines present on a given page, you're tricked into thinking its an Art Adams/Terry Austin piece. I popped open X-Force #3 today to see Siryn, and I thought "Holy crap! It looks just like Michael Golden with lots of cross hatchings!" Upon looking further I saw the awkward perspective and the curiously rendered feet/legs below the kness, etc. But I think I'm on to why he was so damned popular. Jim Lee started out much the same way, but his flaw wasn't perspective and sloppy rendering, it was rendering every single person the exact same way. After Lee, guys like Peterson and Churchill popped up, and drew every male and female as interchangeable parts.
Boot, that is far from the only thing I aimed that comment at. If you don't know what all else it encompasses, you've had your head in the sand since Heroes Reborn/Return came out. Rob's popularity/lack thereof is largely a matter of taste, so I don't understand the absolute glee in hating his stuff. No one other than maybe Greg Land gets raked this hard. I'm not defending Rob for his Shatterstar blunder (although I can sympathize with having a character you like and created being taken a vastly different direction than you intended for him), I'm just sick of PAD getting off the hook for being a petty, bloviating fanboy who is largely guilty of the same crap he often accuses other creators of doing. He's been pulling stuff for years with the Image guys, but he picks his spots. Erik Larsen has fired him up a few times, and I suspect Marc Silvestri, big muscular scary dude that he is,  would just fold him up in a sedan trunk and that would be the last you hear of that.
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  Quote das_boot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 6:48pm
Bub-- Having not actually read much of Liefeld's work, that is the only thing I feel I can comment on. From what I HAVE read, I found his characterization to be flat and dull-- simply my opinion, neither right nor wrong.

I also found his comments about Shatterstar and how he 'can't wait to fix him' to be massively offensive, as it implies that he thinks there is something inherently wrong with a character that he created to be bisexual or gay. Granted, he created the character. Granted, it isn't a direction he would have chosen to take him. However, I think there comes a point when a writer hasn't actually written a great deal about a character for a number of years where they should simply shrug and admit, with a bit of grace and tact, that whilst they may not like the way the character is being written, that since they aren't currently writing them, it's largely out of their hands. Trust me, I'd feel exactly the same if Claremont had mentioned that he couldn't wait to de-lesbian Karma because that wasn't his original plan for her, or if some other writer had thrown a hissy fit about a character's race. It's disrespective of what a current writer is planning or doing with a character, and more to the point, regardless of how many 'Oh, I know tons of gay/black etc people' you throw into your statement, to make a comment such as "he's a warrior, he's a Spartan... but not in the gay way," is MASSIVELY offensive and implies a stereotype that must fit all people of a specific social grouping. My issue is less with his writing, and more with his comments, and how poorly he chose to word them, and then how poorly he ALSO chose to respond to comments made against his original posting.

On the subject of him as a writer/artist, like I said, I haven't read much of anything he's written, but having seen how abysmally disproportionate his art is, I can't help but wonder how the hell he actually gets work. Looking at his Teen Titans work on his website and he seems to have forgotten the first half of the title... these are TEENAGERS, and yet Wonder Girl, Raven, Hawk and Dove (all meant to be about sixteen I believe), have chests that could stop comets, and Robin looks unfeasibly bulky for a character who is meant to be quite small and athletically built, rather than muscular. Furthermore, even looking back at his X-Force work, it's so difficult to believe that a professional artist can get proportions so wrong... if a person in real life had those proportions, they would not be able to walk, let alone run around fighting evil.    
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  Quote The Bub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 9:34pm

I'm not defending anything Liefeld said about Shatterstar, but I also didn't create a character that I can't legally own. That in itself has to be highly frustrating, and probably the biggest reason to form Image. Characters like Cable, Deadpool and Venom brought a ton of cash and new marketing revenue to Marvel, and guys like Rob and Todd didn't see a dime of it, and couldn't even say they owned it (Not they weren't getting rich off of royalties tied to specific issues). Even the alternative, creator-owned publishing line at the time, Epic, was a Marvel subsidiary.  He probably should have been more respectful with how he worded it, but I think he has a right to feel how he feels, to an extent. If Shatterstar was intended to be 'X', and I created him, I'd be a little annoyed when a certain writer made him 'Y'.

As for proportions, I find that most 90's artists eschew them. Sometimes it doesn't age well (Liefeld and McFarlane have some pretty wonky anatomy, looking back), sometimes it does. I think Joe Mad and Carlos Pacheco did some questionable things to the human body at the height of the 90's manga/anime fad, but no one bitched at the time. Giant hands and mouths were the new shoulder pads.
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  Quote Barachiel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 11:42pm
Most of what I credited to Liefeld at 14, I later discovered was actually Fabian Nicieza.  so the best thing he did was let the man help plot and script X-Force.
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  Quote marhawkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 3:04pm
Hmm.... Liefeld's writing tended to be: Badass, basass with swords, badass with guns...
 
It's good in moderation.

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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 3:26pm
I've been thinking about this all day (saw the thread this morning), and allthough I'm a very vocal Liefeld-hater, I thought "Hey, this is true. He must have at least done SOMETHING I liked, thought was a good idea, etc.
 
And the result of this entire day of thinking about his destrucxtion (in my view) of the New Mutants only served to enrage me, and I have to conclude that there is absolutely NOTHING to like about Liefelds tenure on New Mutants and X-Force. That's pretty awesome....
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  Quote cloneX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 4:16pm

Liefeld is a skid mark on the underwear of the Marvel universe.

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  Quote The Bub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 5:18pm
I love this place's delusions of being the "classy" comic book message board.
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  Quote tokenBG1009 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by The Bub

I love this place's delusions of being the "classy" comic book message board.


Its a group mentality thing in my opinion. For instance I'm a huge Cannonball fan, and so one of the first things I did when I got into comics was start collecting issues he appeared in. This started with X-Force because it was the easiest and cheapest to find at the time. I actually enjoyed the books! I couldn't really find much about them I didn't actually like. The stories were entertaining and the Liefield art fit them, but as I got into the comic book community I realized people HATE Liefield with a passion and began to see things like they did. Suddenly to me Liefield was a terrible artist who doesn't deserve to touch a comic book. Basically someone may have one opinion about something but if enough people with a different opinion are about chances are they will change it.

Now, I'm not defending Liefield because compared to the art of books nowadays its pretty terrible, but the 90's area of comic books seemed to be a time of ACTION!, EXPLOSIONS!, GUNS!, FIGHTING!, and all those loud things and his art fit it.

I also completely understand his frustration about Shatterstar. He created the character, and knew him better than anyone else. Shatterstar pretty much embodies everything Liefield is and it almost seems like a personal insult against Liefield to turn Shatterstar gay. Does this mean he's insensitive to the LGB community? Not in the least bit, but I'm sure anyone on this forum who has ever created a character and knew exactly how they wanted that character to be would be PISSED if someone wrote part of the character's story in a way that is different from what you imagined.

People were pissed about Ultimate Colossus being gay, but did it mean they were homophobic? Some of them, maybe, but the majority I have a hard time believing were. You can say "its the ultimate universe, nothing's the same," but many of the characters did stay the same. In my opinion both the Ultimate Colossus and Shatterstar coming out were plot devices to boost sales because these big, strong, manly men were suddenly gay. Does that mean big, strong, manly men can't be gay? Hell no! But change is scary and that is a pretty big change.

TL;DR version: Liefield is bad, immature, and a host of other good things. But there is a time and a place for him. It was back in the 90's.
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  Quote sixhoursoflucy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by The Bub

I love this place's delusions of being the "classy" comic book message board.
The Bub brings up a good point: personally insulting anyone in this forum, including comic book creators, is against forum rules and with good reason. You can criticize someone's work all you want, but attacking his character crosses the line. Yes, that includes calling writers or artists "hacks" and "idiots".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 7:15pm
Correct my diction, but I thought calling someone a hack just meant they produced bad, worthless work for money. I mean, can I not say Jeph Loeb is a hack for Marvel, producing vast amounts of low quality work? I suppose, though, as a pejorative term it's not very classy. I should probably state it better: Jeph Loeb is paid by Marvel to produce tons and tons of bad writing.
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  Quote cloneX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by sixhoursoflucy

Originally posted by The Bub

I love this place's delusions of being the "classy" comic book message board.
The Bub brings up a good point: personally insulting anyone in this forum, including comic book creators, is against forum rules and with good reason. You can criticize someone's work all you want, but attacking his character crosses the line. Yes, that includes calling writers or artists "hacks" and "idiots".
Sometimes it can't be helped. Most of the time a persons work is synonymous with their character. Chronically showing up late to your job goes a long way to explaining what kind of person you are, does it not? Chronic, poorly thought out art and writing goes a long way to explaining what a kind of creator a person is. If I was critisized by almost everybody for how I did my job and did nothing to fix that, what would that say about me? A vast majority of comic fans do not like Liefelds work, and yet he's done nothing to adress their critisisms. What does that say about his character? Rule of law, slander isn't slander if it's true.
 
Also this reeks of double standard IMO. The Bub basically said I had delusions of class. Is that not an attack on my character? Not that it bothered me (I actually found it funny), but just the same. The Bub is entitled to his opinion as I am mine.
 
 
 
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