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Hela and Hel

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Cultar View Drop Down
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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hela and Hel
    Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 2:40pm
In Siege: Loki was shown, that Hela haven´t any place to rule. But her hell must be some other realm, some mystic place so it can´t be destroyed in ragnarok. Or it was?
And if it is away, where are all souls which was in her kingdoom for all centuries?
I tought, that every other world (for christians, asgardians, etc.) is something etneral, when it is for eternity for souls of death.
And what was with all that died after third series of Thor, when they have no place to go?
Disirs are ghosts, or something like that, it is crazy, that no one, even Hela, lady of death, wouldn´t know, if they really exists, or not.

Hell in Marvel universe is just one place? Just like Earth it is realm with few areas like states govern by most powerfull demons? Where was Meggan in Cap. Britain and MI13 annual? It is the same place where goes souls of other death people, or it is something different? Mephisto is absolute ruler of this place, or there is more realms (separate one from each other).
It looks to me that editors in Marvel were fired out many years ago and every writer put in global relations what he wants. Could someone with knowledge let me know more about this stuff?
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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 3:17pm

Well, the last time Ragnarok rolled around, in Thor Disassembled was suposed to REALLY have been the last time. No more Asgard, nothing! Everything would be different now, so it is safe to assume that all of Asgard's nine worlds were destroyed.

The city of Asgard was reborn, not the realm. The whole dimension/universe/realm it was in had ceased to be. Then most of the Asgardians returned, were reborn. I think this means that there were no Asgardian souls to inhabit the Asgardian Hell at this time, and the Faithfull, that believed in the Norse Gods, were somehow destroyed or lost in the Ragnarok.
 
As far as I know there are several realms to be classified as Hell in the MU. Lot's death-gods have their slice and many of the Hell-lords (the Lords of the Splinter-realms) have their own place. Hela's place is not the same as Hell, it just shares a name. It would be more appropriate to compare in to Pluto's underworld.
 
As fot the Disir: Yeah, you'd expect Hela to at least have known they really do exist.
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  Quote Monolith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 3:24pm
The Ragnarok finale of Thor Vol 2 wiped out everything Asgardian, including all the Nine Worlds beyond Midgard, Earth. Surtur's Muspelheim, the Frost Giants' Jotunheim, Nornheim, etc are all gone. Thor's resurrection brought back the realm of Asgard and, eventually, the inhabitants of the realms, but not all the realms themselves. Hel is gone, as is Valhalla, Hall of the Honored Dead, where mortal warriors were gathered for the inevitable coming of Ragnarok. Ragnarok has come and gone, so there is no more need for Valhalla.
 
Basically, all the dead bound to the Asgardians realms either went to Hel or were risen to Valhalla. The Disir could only show up to claim souls if Hela and the Valkyries slacked off on their jobs in the first place. So while their legend was a constant threat, it wasn't until the loss of Hel that a situation arose that actually revealed their presence.
 
There are multiple Hell realms in the Marvel Universe, ruled over by demons like Mephisto, Satannish, Thog, and Daimon Hellstrom, or the dark afterlife realms like Pluto's Hades, Hela's Hel, etc. Each is dimensionally separate from the other.
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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2010 at 1:44pm
Thanks for explanation.
I tought that destruction of asgardians doesn´t mean destruction of other worlds, that this worlds are something bigger than agardian gods. It´s realms of elfs, giants, etc. so it must be somehting bigger.
And it is strange, because we now that in Marve Universe are older gods (like Gaia, Demiurge, etc) so humanity wasn´t cration of asgardians, or olympians, or other divine entities of comics, but they sometimes present something like that. But even if they aren´t creators, they are "GODS", so others should have also powers (not just thunder thor). Divine powers and when they are back, they should be able to recreate other worlds and Hela should be able to recreate her own hell. If she is goddess of death and underworld and if this underworld is dogmatic embodimet of death and afterlife, it should be back with gods which are here on base of some dogmatic belief (it isn´t on gods decided if they are here. It is on people and if they believed, gods will be still here. - Something like that was told to Thor in first issiue of Third series). They don´t do nothing divine, only Thor bring back asgard and launching thunders and Loki present some witchery.
 
And Valhalla should be something like reward for noble life for warrior so they don´t end up in hell. I don´t know, but it is odd, they put Gods on very low level so they could merge with mortals. Hercules is demigod, ok, but others should be something more. When Iron Man recruited Ares, it was also ok, he threaten him that he brings on him (and Ares was here alone) mosts powerful like Sentry (we didn´t now then how powerfull he is), Vison, She-Hulk, Wonder Man and other similar. But others gods when they are together, they should be more powerfull and have more abilities (like mentioned recreation of realms and hell).
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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 11:46am
Those realms of Elves, Giants, etc. got destroyed, too, in the Ragnarok. Withess recent issues of X-Force, with Rhane's wolf-prince.
 
And the "Gods" are creators of their own realms of power, including their "Hell". That they claim Earth as well should be taken with a grain of salt, they just discovered earth.
 
Even the Elder Gods don't claim to have really created the world.
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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by JanO

And the "Gods" are creators of their own realms of power, including their "Hell".

Even the Elder Gods don't claim to have really created the world.


So Hela should be able to create her own Hell, not to loan it from Mephisto.

By World I mean just Earth and People.
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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 1:01pm

Not all the Gods are creators. Hela is the bastard-offspring of Loki and the Giantess Angrbode.... Hardly prime stock. She isn't even a Godess as such as I recal. She's Hell's ruler, but not the Godess of Death persee.....

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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 1:24pm
Loki also isn´t, he is offspring of Giants and he has a great magical skills.
So who are asgardian gods? Thor, Odin, Balder (he is son of odin, but didn´t present any divine abilities), Heimdall and who?

Some asgardians died even before Siege and after their mass ressurection, so they should do something with it. Thor and Heimadll should recreate Hell. And also other realms, because it is genocide on elves, giants, dwarfs and other inhabitants of this realms. they aren´t responsible but they lived there so they should try to do something. Ok, this is speculations, but with Hell (or more some afterlife place for good and bad) they should do something, they are fully responsible for their nation.
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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 1:59pm
Odin, Thor, Balder, Freya, Njord, Aegir, Tyr, Freyr, Vidar, Hoenir... I'm not that sure about Heimdall, even....
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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 2:22pm
So only two gods (Tyr died in Siege) are actually alive and they don´t care about their death fellows. They should start making children, if they want that asgard persist.
Sif also isn´t goddess? In mythology she was, but in Marvel probably not. I know that this is marvel universe version of asgardians, but they should treat with them a little more with some writers borders, logic and order.


Edited by Cultar - 19-Apr-2010 at 2:22pm
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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 3:16pm
Sif and all the others are mythological characters, but I'm not sure if the ancient Norse actually prayed to her.....
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  Quote marhawkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 3:19pm
In Norse mythology all the residents of Asgard were considered gods.  The more powerful ones were revered more than others but they would keep all of them in mind.

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  Quote JanO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 3:23pm
I think they were considered Aesir, but not Gods....
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  Quote marhawkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2010 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by JanO

I think they were considered Aesir, but not Gods....
what I was saying is that it was the same thing.... both the Aesir AND Vanir were.

Edited by marhawkman - 19-Apr-2010 at 4:10pm

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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 11:31am
In Thor 610 we see, that Valhalla is still there. I must repeat myself that it is strange. They have no order in it and writers don´t realize it, or they have chaos in their plans. Or it is Hela´s place, but it is strange that no one act as if it is something new. They don´t care about dead beofre, or it was still here or is hela´s work and they simply accepted it and also accepted lost of souls died before her deal with mephisto. Marvel need some order, where are all editors?
 
And one would think that Valhalla is a reward. Men, especially warriors have their needs. Eternity with food but without women? And love is forbidden, as we see. So love isn´t immortal and the greatest power. it is just for living, because women aren´t allowed in Valhalla and if somene is really fallen in love and died as a hero, his reward is eternity without his beloved. hm...
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  Quote Blackcyclops Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 3:39pm
@Cultar-I'm lost as to what you are exactly saying...Valhalla is just a hall now, as revealed in Thor #610. I don't see how thats contradictory or error-ridden. Hela herself was given an area of Mephisto's land to govern. Since Asgard was resurrected that is where the dead went since the other 8 realms were not returned when Asgard the land was returned.

Your post is confusing as to what exactly you are saying or asking.
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  Quote Cultar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 5:37pm

Mostly I want to say that is strange that with so many deaths no one care about their souls in afterlife. Loki did it for herself, but if he don´t do it, nobody will do nothing with it. It doesn´t look very noble for proud asgardians and Thor especially. And before Monolith wrote that Valhalla was also destroyed. And Hela said in New Mutants that she has no job, because she has no place for death souls. It must means no hell and no Valhalla. Nobody missed it and now it is here and they just take it as a fact. I don´t know, maybe I expected some connection and explanation in story, not just some underlined story sequences for readers without proper fitting in story as a whole and also maybe some more godlike presentation of asgardian GODs.

And as I understand it Valhalla is place for death, so it is part of afterlife realm. It can´t be just hall in building. End of my previous post was just a philosophic thinking about love and afterlife by their belief. If it is really reward, or not. Just forget it.
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  Quote Monolith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 7:46pm
Seeing Valhalla in Thor was a surprise to me as well, Cultar. Ultimately, though, I think we just have to accept that the entire Asgardian mythos is operating under a new, unexplained set of rules since they broke the cycle for Ragnarok. Valhalla shouldn't exist anymore, classically speaking, since its only purpose was to preserve valuable warrior spirits for the final battle of Ragnarok. Yet, here it is.
 
The rules have changed...we just have to hope Marvel sees fit to explain these new rules to us one day.
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  Quote Blackcyclops Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2010 at 9:43pm
It seems that Valhalla has become the place that the warriors just go after they die...like the common myth goes (the part about Ragnarok is typically left out of leypersons explanation of it).
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